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http://www.archive.org/details/conversationsofbOOjons

CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

WILLIAM DRUM M ON D

BEN JONSON.

^■

Conversations of Beir

oL-jtyl-^

William Drummond

OF HAWTHORN DEN

y

EDITED
WITH AN INTRODUCTION AND NOTES

BY

PHILIP SIDNEY, F.R.HisT.S.

GAY AND BIRD

2 2 BEDFORD STREET, STKANM)

LONDON

1906

I

CONTENTS

I. INTRODUCTION . - - . i

II. BEN JONSON'S conversations - lO

III. drummond's opinion ok ionson - 62

ILLUSTRATIONS

PORTRAIT OF BEN JOHNSON - - Frontispiece

portrait ok \VM. IJRUMMONIJ - - Page 32

CONVERSATIONS OF

BEN JONSON

CHAPTER I

INTRODUCTION

The ' Conversations ' of Ben Jonson with
his brother poet, WiUiam Drummond,
Laird of Hawthornden, are of an immense
literary and historical value. From the
notes recorded by Drummond of these
' Conversations ' we derive an insight into
the characteristics of the majority of the
most illustrious celebrities that flourished

I

2 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

during the reigns of Elizabeth and James I.
It is, in fact, impossible for either a
student of the politics and the letters of
that period, or for a would-be biographer
of Ben Jonson, to acquire a satisfactory-
comprehension of his subject without re-
ference to this information bequeathed to
us by Drummond.

Notwithstanding the importance of these
'Conversations,' their circulation in print
has hitherto been by no means so exten-
sive as would be imagined. The principal
honour of introducing them, in the shape
of a separate volume, to the world at
large, may be properly held to date back
to the year 1842, when they were, owing
to the industry and research of Mr. David
Laing, printed from Sir Robert Sibbald's
manuscript copy, and published in book
form by the Shakespeare Society.

INTRODUCTION 3

But editions issued by means of the
munificence of learned societies must be
more or less limited in both circulation
and popularity ; and the present editor
may be pardoned if he considers that there
exists sufficient room for another impres-
sion, which, whilst accurately conveying
the same text as that transcribed by
Laing, is reproduced for the convenience
of his readers in the modern style of
spelling.

The 'Conversations' recorded by Drum-
mond took place when Jonson visited him
at Hawthornden, in 16 18- 19. The old
tradition that Jonson, then in his forty-
sixth year, walked all the way from Lon-
don to Edinburgh solely from the desire
to visit Drummond has long been aban-
doned as incorrect, since it is evident that

I — 2

4 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

'Rare' Ben's visit to Hawthornden^ was
merely an incident in a tour, undertaken
out of curiosity to see something of
Scotland and the Scotch.

Of the friendship that existed between
the poets not much can be advanced in
favour. There can be no doubt that a
mutual love of learning was the sole sub-
ject in which their opinions remained in
cordial harmony. The two men were of
so totally different character that their lack
of agreement is not surprising. In the
eyes of Drummond his Southern rival was,
considered from a social point of view, a
vulgar, boastful, tipsy plebeian, whilst
jovial, open-handed, open-hearted^ Ben

^ Hawthornden is situated some nine miles south-
east of Edinburgh, and close to the famous Roslin
Chapel.

2 ' He wore his heart upon his sleeve, for daws to
peck at'

INTRODUCTION 5

must have felt repulsed by the strict and
somewhat narrow views and inclinations
of his aristocratic host, who was to die
broken-hearted by the execution of his
King.^

Between the genius of the pair it is
unnecessary to institute comparisons. But
the most sincere admirer of Drummond
must admit that Jonson was not only the
most original, but, generally speaking, the
greater writer, although some of the
' Scottish Petrarch's ' Sonnets admittedly
reach a high rank of excellence. Jonson's
criticism that Drummond's poems ' were
not after the fancy of the time ' was, per-
haps, scarcely correct, for many of them
bear, in point both of style and choice of

' Charles I. Drummond died December 4, 1649;
Jonson August 6, 1637. Drummond was born
December 13, 1585 ; Jonson in the year 1573.

6 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

subject, a close resemblance to works of
certain of the Elizabethan poets.

Jonson's journey to Scotland was re-
markable for reasons other than that of
his meeting with Drummond. Travelling
from the English to the Scottish Metro-
polis was in those days no mean adven-
ture, especially as the ' man-mountain/
according to his own account, both in
going and returning, accomplished a big
piece of the way on foot. The fame of his
exploit attracted an imitator in the person
of John Taylor, the ' water-poet,' who,
starting later than Ben, had an interview
with him at Leith. Taylor, after having
penetrated further north than Jonson, re-
turned to London before the intercourse
at Hawthornden, which did not take place
till December, 1618, and could, perhaps,
not have lasted much more than a fort-

INTRODUCTION 7

night. Taylor/ who is referred to in these
'Conversations' as 'the Sculler,' boasted
that he started on his ' pennyless' journey
without any friends whatsoever, and de-
pended entirely on the hospitality of
strangers to obtain both food and lodging,
and sometimes clothes.

A couple of amusing anecdotes are
handed down in connection with Jonson's
journey, although the second may be
accepted ciivi grano. On quitting London
Ben called to say farewell on Bacon, who
told him that he ' liked not to see Poetry

^ Taylor, by profession a waterman on the Thames,
was a prolific writer of verse. He was the original
biographer (in rhyme) of Thomas Parr, the celebrated
centenarian, who (so his tombstone states) lived to
the age of 152. 'Old Parr' was a native of Shrop-
shire, and died in London, 1635. He is buried in
Westminster Abbey. He claimed to have been born
in the reign of Edward IV., and to have had a child
when over a hundred years old.

8 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

go OR other feet than poetical dactyls
and spondees.' On reaching Drummond's
house he was greeted by his host with the
improvised salutation —

'Welcome, welcome, royal Ben !'

to which he forthwith replied :

' Thank ye, thank ye, Hawthornden !'^

Drummond's notes of Jonson's ' Con-
versations ' are not always fit for family
reading, but although no attempt has been
made to ' Bowdlerize ' this edition, certain
minute information relative to the love-
affairs of Ben Jonson, Sir Henry Wotton,
and young Ralegh — possessing no

^ In explanation of this, it is hardly necessary to
state that, in Scotland, gentlemen are often called by
the titles of their estates instead of by their surnames,
e.g., Cluny, for Macpherson of Cluny; Lochiel, for
Cameron of Lochiel; Keppoch, for INIacdonald of
Keppoch.

INTRODUCTION 9

literary or historic interest — has been
omitted. Jonson's criticism of Queen
Elizabeth's morals, coarse though it un-
doubtedly is, has been verified by the
testimony of other contemporary writers,
and, on account of its historical value, has
been printed in full.

CHAPTER II

BEN JONSOn's conversations WITH
WILLIAM DRUiMMOND

The following is Drummond's account
of the ' informations ' given to him by Ben
Johnson, when they conversed together
at Hawthornden, in 1618-19.

I.

That he had an intention to perfect an
epic poem entitled ' Heroologia,' of the
worthies of his country raised by fame,
and was to dedicate it to his country ; it
is all in couplets, for he detesteth all other
rhymes. He said he had written a ' Dis-

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND ii

course of Poetry ' both against Campion
and Daniel, especially the last, where he
proves couplets to be the bravest sort of
verses, especially when they are broken,
like hexameters ; and that cross-rhymes
and stanzas (because the purpose would
lead him beyond ei^ht lines to conclude)
were all forced.

II.

He recommended to my reading Ouin-
tilian (who he said would tell me the faults
of my verses as if he lived with me), and
Horace, Pliny the Younger's Epistles,
Tacitus, Juvenal, Martial, whose epigram
' Vitam quae faciunt beatorem,' etc.. he
hath translated.

III.

His censure of the English Poets was
this: That Sidney did not keep a decorum in
making everyone speak as well as himself.

12 CONA^ERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

Spenser's stanzas pleased him not, nor his
matter, the meaning of which Allegory^ he
had dehvered in papers to Sir Walter
Ralegh.

Samuel Daniel was a orood honest
man, had no children, but no poet ; that
Michael Drayton's ' Polyolbion,' if he
had performed what he promised to write
(the deeds of all the Worthies) had been
excellent : his long verses pleased him
not ; that Silvester's translation of Du
Bartas was not well done, and that he
wrote his verses before it, ere he under-
stood to confer^ ; nor that of Fairfax's ;^
that the translations of Homer and
Virgil in long Alexandrines were but

^ The ' Faerie Queene.'

^ I.e., before he was sufficiently acquainted with
French to form a just opinion.

■^ I.e., was not well done, referring to his trans-
lation of Tasso's ' Jerusalem.'

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOXD 13

prose ; that Sir John Harrington's
' Ariosto ' under all translations was the
worst ; that when Sir John desired him to
tell him the truth of his ' Epigrams,' he
answered him that he loved not the
truth, for they were narrations, and not
epigrams ; that Warner, since the King's^
coming to England, had marred all his
' Albion s England'; that Donne's ' Anni-
versary ' was profane and full of blas-
phemies ; that he told Mr. Donne- if it
had been written of the Virgin Mary it
had been something, to which he answered
that he described the idea of a Woman,
and not as she was ; that Donne, for not
keeping of accent, deserved hanging ; that
Shakespeare wanted art ; that Sharpham,
Day, Dekker, were all rogues, and that

1 James I. of England and VI. of Scotland.

2 John Donne (1573— 1631), Dean of St. Paul's.

14 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

Minshew was one ; that Abram Francis/
in his Eno^lish hexameters, was a fool ;
that next himself- only Fletcher and
Chapman could make a masque.

IV.

His judgment of Stranger^ Poets was

that he thought not Bartas^ a poet, but a
verser, because he wrote fiction. He

cursed Petrarch for redacting verses into

sonnets ; which he said were like that

tyrant's bed, where some who were too

short were racked, others too long cut

short; that Guarini in his 'Pastor Fido '

^ Abraham Fraunce.

2 Dryden dubbed Jonson ' the most learned and
judicious writer any theatre ever had.' His ' last
plays,' however, according to the same illustrious
authority, ' were but his dotages.'

^ Foreign.

^ Du Bartas. His ' Divine Weeks and Works
were translated by Sylvester.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 15

kept not decorum in making shepherds
speak as well as himself could ; that Lucan,
taken in parts, was good divided : read
altogether, merited not the name of a poet ;
that Bonnefon's ' Vigilum Veneris ' was
excellent ; that he told Cardinal du Perron
at his being in France, anno 161 3, who
showed him his translations of Virgil, that
they were naught ; that Ronsard's best
pieces were his ' Odes.'^

V.

He read his translation of that Ode of

Horace, * Beatus ille qui procul negotiis,'

and admired it. Of an epigram of

Petronius, ' Foeda et brevis est Veneris

^ Drummond challenged the accuracy of Jonson's
statements throughout the whole of ' iv.' on the
grounds that Ben knew scarcely any French or
Italian ; and, with reference to his translations from
the Greek and I^tin, Mr. Swinburne says that 'a
worse translator than Ben Jonson never committed a
double outrage on two languages at once.'

1 6 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

voluptas '; concluding it was better to lie
still and kiss . . .

To me he read the preface of his ' Art
of Poesy,' upon Horace's 'Art of Poetry '
where he hath an apology of a play of his,
'St. Bartholemew's Fair": by ' Criticus ' is
understood Donne. There is an epigram
of Sir Edward Herbert's before it : this
he said he had done in my Lord Aubanie's^
house ten years since, anno 1604.

The most commonplace of his repetition

was a dialogue-pastoral between a shepherd

and a shepherdess about singing. Another,

' Parabortes Parian,' with his letter ; that

' Epigram of Gout '; my Lady Bedford's

luck ; his verses of drinking, ' Drink to me

but with thine eyes^ '; ' Swell me a bowl,'

etc. His verses of a kiss,

^ Esme Stuart, Lord D'Aubigny.
2 ' Drink to me only with thine eyes,
And I will pledge with mine,' etc.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 17

' But kiss me once, and faith I will be gone ;
And I will touch as harmless as the bee
That doth but taste the flower and flee away.'

That is but half a one ; what should be
done but once, should be done long.

He read a satire of a lady come from
the bath ; verses on the pucelle of the
court, Mistress Boulstred, whose epitaph
Donne made ; a satire telling there was no
abuses to write a satire of, and in which
he repeateth all the abuses in England
and the W^orld. He insisted in that of
Martial's 'Vitam quae faciunt beatorem.'

VI.

His censure of my^ verses was : That
they were all good, especially my epitaph
of the Prince, save that they smelled
too much of the Schools, and were not
after the fancy of the time ; for a child.

» Drummond's. A^^^^^ <\

i^-^^y^^"^'

1 8 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

says he, may write after the fashion of the
Greek and Latin verses in running ; yet
that he wished, to please the King, that
piece of ' Forth Feasting '^ had been his
own.

VII.

He esteemeth John Donne the first
poet in the World in some things ; his
verses of the ' lost Ochadine ' he hath
by heart ; and that passage of the Calm,
that ' dust and feathers do not stir, all was
quiet'; affirmeth Donne to have written
all his best pieces before he was twenty-
five years old.

Sir Henry Wotton's verses of 'a Happy
Life ' he hath by heart, and a piece of
Chapman's translation of the thirteen of
the Iliads, which he thinketh well done.

•^ Written by Drummond on the occasion of the
royal visit to Edinburgh, 1617, under the title of
(The River of) ' Forth Feasting.'

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 19

That Donne said to him, he wrote that
epitaph on Prince Henry,^ ' Look to me,
Faith,' to match Sir Ed. Herbert in
obscureness.

He hath by heart some verses of
Spenser's 'Calendar,'- about wine, be-
tween CoHn and Percy.

VIII.

The conceit of Donne's ' Transforma-
tion,' or ' Metempsychosis,' was that he
sought the soul of that apple which Eve
pulled, and thereafter made it the soul of a
bitch, then of a she-wolf, and so of a
woman. His general purpose was to have
brought in all the bodies of the heretics
from the soul of Cain, and at last left it

^ The elder brother of Charles I. Drummond
wrote a poem in his memory, referred to by Jonson.
2 ' Shepherd's Calendar.'

20 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

in the body of Calvin ; of this he never
wrote but one sheet, and now, since he
was made Doctor, repenteth highly, and
seeketh to destroy all his poems.

IX.

That Petronlus, Pliny the Younger,
Tacitus, spoke the best Latin ; that Quin-
tilian's sixth, seventh, and eighth books
were not only to be read, but altogether
digested. Juvenal, Perse, ^ Martial, for
delight ; and so was Pindar ; for health,
Hippocrates.

Of their nation, Hooker's ' Ecclesiastical
Polity ' (whose children are now beggars),
for church matters. Selden's ' Titles of
Honour,' for antiquities here ; and a book
of the gods of the Gentiles, whose names
are in the Scripture, of Selden's.

^ Persius Flaccus.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 21

Tacitus, he said, wrote the secrets of the
council and senate, as Suetonius did of
the cabinet and court.

X.

For a heroic poem, he said, there was
no such ground as King Arthur's fiction ;
and that Sir P. Sidney had an intention to
have transformed all his ' Arcadia ' to the
stories of King Arthur.

XI.

His acquaintance and behaviour with
Poets living with him :

Daniel was jealous of him ;

Drayton feared him ; and he esteemed
not of him ;

that Fr. Beaumont loved too much
himself and his own verses ;

that Sir John Roe loved him ; and
when they two were ushered by my
Lord Suffolk from a masque, Roe wrote a

22 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

moral epistle to him, which began, ' That
next to plays the Court and State were
best. God threateneth Kings, Kings
Lords, as Lords do us ' ;

he beat Marston, and took his pistol
from him ;

Sir W. Alexander was not half kind
unto him, and neglected him, because a
friend to Drayton ;

that Sir Robert Aiton^ loved him dearly ;

Nid^ Field was his scholar, and he had
read to him the 'Satires' of Horace and
some ' Epigrams ' of Martial ;

that Markham (who added his English
' Arcadia ') was not of the number of the
faithful,-^ and but a base fellow ;

1 Sir Robert Aytoun(rs7o — 1638), a poet. 'He
was acquainted,' says Aubrey, ' with all the wits of his
time in England.'

2 Nathan.
^ Poets.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 23

that such were Day and Middleton ;

that Chapman and Fletcher were loved
of him ;

Overbury was first his friend, then
turned his mortal enemy.

XII.

That the Irish, having robbed Spenser's
goods, and burnt his house and a little child
new born, he and his wife escaped ; and
after, he died for lack of bread^ in King
Street, but refused twenty pieces sent to
him by my Lord of Essex, and said he
was sorry he had no time to spend them ;
that in that paper Sir W. Ralegh had of
the allegories of his ' Fairy Queen,' by
the ' Blatant Beast ' the Puritans were

' This is untrue. Spenser, although poor, was in
receipt of an official salary, and his many friends would
not have let him starve.

24 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

understood, by the ' false Duessa ' the
Queen of Scots ;

that Southwell^ was hanged ; yet so he^
had written that piece of his, the ' Burning
Babe,' he would have been content to
destroy many of his ;

Francis Beaumont died ere he was
.thirty years of age ;

Sir John Roe was an infinite spender,
and used to say, ' when he had no more to
spend he could die.' He died, in his arms,
of the pest, and he furnished his charges
— 20 pounds, which was given him back ;

that Drayton was challenged^ for
entitling one book ' Mortimeriados ';

that Sir J. Davies played in an epigram

^ Robert Southwell, a member of the Society of
Jesus, was executed in London, 1595. Jonson's
reference is to his exquisite poem commencing: 'As
I in hoary winter's night.'

" Jonson. 2 Criticised.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 25

on Drayton's, who, in a sonnet, con-
cluded his mistress might have been the
' Ninth Worthy,' and said he used a phrase
Hke Dametas in ' Arcadia/ who said, * for
wit his mistress might be a giant';

Donne's grandfather, on the maternal
side, was Heywood, the epigrammatist.
That Donne himself, for not being under-
stood, would perish ;

that Sir W. Ralegh esteemed more of
fame than conscience. The best wits
in England were employed for making
his history.^ Ben himself had written
a piece for him of the Punic war,
which he altered and set in his book ;
S. W.- hath written the life of Q. Eliza-
beth, of which there are copies extant ;

Sir P. Sidney had translated some of

1 ' History of the World.'
- Ralegh.

26 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

the Psalms, which went abroad under the
name of the Countess of Pembroke ;^

Marston wrote his father-in-law's preach-
ings, and his father-in-law his comedies ;

Shakespeare, in a play,- brought in a
number of men saying they had suffered
shipwreck in Bohemia, where there is no
sea near by some lOO miles;

Daniel wrote 'Civil Wars,' and yet hath
not one battle in all his book ;

the Countess of Rutland was nothing
inferior to her father,-^ Sir P. Sidney, in

^ Of this translation, undertaken by Sir Philip and
Lady Pembroke, the first forty-three are by Sir Philip,
the remainder by his sister. Donne praised the
edition in a poem.

'•^ The ' Winter's Tale.'

^ Lady Rutland was Sir Philip's only surviving
child. She died, s.p., in 1612. Drummond's
estimate of Sir Philip's poetical genius was much
higher than Jonson's. ' Among our English poets,
Petrarch is imitated^nay, surpassed in some things —
in matter and manner ; in matter none approach him
to Sidney' (Diummond).

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 27

poetry. Sir T. Overbury was in love with
her, and caused Ben to read his ' \\ ife ' to
her, which he, with an excellent grace,
did, and praised the author. That, the
morning thereafter, he discorded with
Overbury, who would have him to intend
a suit that was unlawful. The lines my
Lady kept in remembrance, ' he comes
near who comes to be denied.' Beaumont
wrote that elegy on the death of the
Countess of Rutland; and in effect her hus-
band wanted the half of ... in his travels ;

Owen is a pure pedantic schoolmaster,
sweeping his living from the posteriors of
his little children ; and hath nothing good
in him, his epigrams being bare narrations ;

Chapman hath translated Musa^us, in
his verses, like his Homer ;^

Fletcher and Beaumont, ten years since,

^ Jonson's frequent criticisms on Chapman's trans-
lations were by no means true or just.

28 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

hath written the ' Faithful Shepherdess,' a
tragicomedy, well done ;

Dyer^ died unmarried ;

Sir P. Sidney was no pleasant man in
countenance, his face being spoilt with
pimples, and of high blood, and long : that
my Lord Lisle, now Earl of Worcester,
his eldest son, resembleth him.-

XIII.

Of his 0ZV71 Life, Education, Birth,
Actions.

His grandfather came from Carlisle,
and, he thought, from Annandale to it,

1 Sir Edward, author of that perfect poem, * My
Mind to me a Kingdom is.'

^ This information is reported incorrectly by
Drummond throughout. The hero of Zutphen had
no son, and his brother Robert was created Earl of
Leicester, not Worcester. Sir Philip's portraits reveal
him as having had a clear, rather effeminate skin, free
from blemishes. It is not known that Jonson ever
saw Sir Philip, who died in 1586. He praised Lord
Leicester in his poem, the ' Forest'

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUM MONO 29

he served King Henry Vill., and was a
gentleman.^ His father lost all his estate
under Queen iMary, having been cast in
prison and forfeited ;"- at last turned
minister, so he was a minister's son. He
himself was posthumous born, a month after
his father's decease ; brought up poorly,
put to school by a friend (his master
Camden, Clarencieux) ; after taken from
it, and put to another craft,'^ which he
could not endure ; then went he to the
Low Countries, but returning soon, be-
took himself to his wonted studies. In
his service in the Low Countries he had,

' Aubrey says that ' Ben Jonson was a Warwickshire
man.'

2 This information, which has been accepted for
gospel by many writers, was merely an ingenious, but
probably unwarranterl, attempt on Jonson's part to
pretend that he was lineally descended from the
Johnstones of Annandale.

2 That of a bricklayer, his stepfather's trade.

30 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

in the face of both the camps, killed an
enemy and taken ' opima spolia ' from him ;
and since his coming to England, being
appealed to the fields,^ he had killed his
adversary, who had hurt him in the arm,
and whose sword was lo inches longer
than his ; for the which he was imprisoned,
and almost at the gallows.^ Then took
he his religion by trust, of a priest who
visited him in prison. Thereafter he was
twelve years a Papist ;

he was Master of Arts in both the

1 Challenged to a duel.

2 Little could he have then anticipated that, when
he was to take his departure from this world, he
would receive the posthumous honours of burial in
Westminster i\bbey, as to which Aubrey records that
'he (Jonson) lies buried in the north aisle . . . with this
inscription only on him, in a pavement square of
blue marble 14 inches square, " O Rare Ben : Jonson,"
which was done at the charge of Jack Young, after-
wards knighted, who, walking there when the grave
was covering, gave the fellow eighteen pence to cut it.'

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 31

Universities, by their favour, not by his
study ;

he married a wife, who was honest,
yet a shrew ; five years he had not bedded
with her, but remained with my Lord
D'Aubigny ; in the time of his close im-
prisonment, under O. Eh'zabeth, his judges
could get nothing of him to all their
demands, but ' Aye ' and ' No.' They
placed two damned villains, to catch
advantage of him, with him, but he was
advertised by his keeper ; of the spies he
hath an epigram ;

when the King came in England (at
that time the pest was in London), he^
being in the country at Sir R. Cotton's
house with old Camden, he saw in a vision
his eldest son, then a child and at London,
appear unto hirr. with the mark of a bloody

' Jonson.

■jai, CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

cross on his forehead, as if it had been
cut with a sword, at which amazed he
prayed unto God, and in the morning he
came to Master Camden's chamber to tell
him ; who persuaded him it was but an
apprehension of his fancy, at which he
should not be dejected ; in the meantime
there comes letters from his wife of the
death of that boy from the plague. He
appeared to him of a manly shape, and
of that growth that he thinks he shall
be at the Resurrection ;

he was delated^ by Sir James Murray
to the Kinor for writing somethino- ao-ainst
the Scots, in a play (' Eastward Ho'), and
voluntarily imprisoned himself with Chap-
man and Marston, who had written it
amongst them. The report was that they
should have had their ears and noses cut.
1 Accused,

WILLIAM DRU/^nOND,

OF MAWTHORNDEN.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND S3

After their delivery, he banqueted all his
friends, — Camden, Selden, and others ; at
the midst of the feast his old mother drank
to him, and showed him a paper which
she had (if the sentence had taken execu-
tion) to have mixed in the prison amongst
his drink, which was full of lusty, strong
poison, and that she was no churl, she
told that she minded to first have drunk
of it herself ;

he had many quarrels with Marston,
beat him, and wrote his ' Poetaster ' on
him ; the beginning of them was that
Marston represented him on the stage as
in his youth given to vener)'. He thought
the use of a maid nothing in comparison to
the wantonness of a wife, and would never
have any other mistress. He said two
strange accidents befell him : one, that a
man made his own wife to court him,

3

34 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

whom he enjoyed two years ere he knew
of it, and one day, finding them by chance,
was . . .^

Sir W. Raleg-h sent him governor with
his son,'^ anno 1 6 1 3, to France. This youth
being knavishly incHned, among other
pastimes . . . caused him to be drunken,
and dead-drunk, so that he knew not
where he was ; thereafter laid him on a
car, which he^ made to be drawn by
pioneers through the streets, at every
corner showing his governor stretched
out, and telhng them that was a more

^ The remainder of this sentence I have omitted.

^ I.e., tutor to Ralegh's son.

^ Ralegh's son, who was killed in battle, 16 18,
when with his father in America. 'One day, w^hen
Ben had taken a plentiful dose, and was fallen into a
sound sleep, young Ralegh got a great basket and
a couple of men, who laid Ben in it, and then with a
pole carried him between their shoulders to Sir Walter,
telling him their young master had sent home his
tutor ' (Oldys).

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 35

lively image of the crucifix than any they
had, at which sport young Ralegh's
mother delighted much (saying that his
father when young was so inclined), though
the father abhorred it. He can set horo-
scopes, but trusts not in them. He, with
the consent of a friend, cozened a lady,
with whom he had made an appointment
to meet an old astroloQ^er in the suburbs,
which she kept ; and it was himself dis-
guised in a long gown and white beard, at
the light of dim-burning candles, up in a
little cabinet reached unto by a ladder ;

every New Year's Day he had twenty
pounds sent him from the Earl of Pem-
broke to buy books ;

after that he was reconciled with the
Church, and left off to be a recusant ;^ at
his first communion, in token of true

> /.f., ceased to be a Roman Catholic.

3—2

36 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

reconciliation, he drank out all the full cup
of wine ; being at the end of my Lord
Salisbury's table with Inigo Jones, and
demanded by my Lord why he was not
glad : My Lord, saith he, you promised
that I should dine with you, but I do not ;
for he had none of his meat ; he esteemeth
only that his meat which was of his own dish ;

he hath consumed a whole night in
lying looking at his great toe, about which
he hath seen Tartars and Turks, Romans
and Carthaginians, fight in his imagination ;

Northampton was his mortal enemy for
beating, on a St. George's day, one of
his attenders ; he was called before the
Council for his ' Sejanus,' and accused both
of popery and treason by him ;^

sundry times he hath devoured his
books ;- he hath a mind to be a church-

^ Lord Northampton.

2 ' Sold them all for necessity.' — Drum.mond.

CONVERSATIONS WirH DRUMMOND 37

man, and so he might have favour to make
one sermon to the King, he careth not
wliat thereafter should befall him, for he
would not flatter though he saw death ;

at his coming hither, Sir Francis Bacon
said to him, ' he loved not to see Poetry
goon other feet than dactyls and spondees.'

XIV.

His N^ar rations of Great Ones.

He never esteemed of a man for the
name of a lord ;

O. Elizabeth never saw herself, after
she became old, in a true glass; they
painted her, and sometimes would ver-
milion her nose. She had always, about
Christmas evens, set dice that threw
sixes or fives, and she knew not they
were other, to make her win and esteem

38 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

herself fortunate. That she had a mem-
brane on her, which made her incapable of
man, though for her delight she tried
many. At the coming over of Monsieur/
there was a French chirurgeon who took in
hand to cut it, yet fear stayed her, and his
death. King Philip had intention, by dis-
pensation of the Pope, to have married her ;

Sir P. Sidney's mother,^ Leicester's
sister, after she had the small-pox, never
showed herself thereafter at Court, except
masked ;

the Earl of Leicester gave a bottle of
liquor to his lady, which he willed her to
use in any faintness ; which she, after his
return from Court, not knowing it was
poison, gave him, and so he died ;

^ Duke of Anjou.

^ Lady Mary Sidney, sister of Robert Dudley,
Earl of Leicester, who is here referred to as having
been poisoned by his wife.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 39

Salisbury^ never cared for any man
longer than he could make use of him ;

my lord Lisle's- daughter, my lady
Wroth, is unworthily married to a jealous
husband ;

Ben, one day being at table with my
lady Rutland, her husband coming in,
accused her that she kept table to poets,
of which she wrote a letter to him, which
he answered. My lord intercepted the
letter, but never challenged him ;

my Lord Chancellor of England
wringeth his speeches from the strings of
his band, and other councillors from the
picking of their teeth ;

Pembroke and his lady discoursing, the
Earl said ' the women were men's

^ Robert Cecil, the Minister of James I.

- Robert Sidney, Earl of Leicester. His eldest
daughter, Mary, married Sir R. Wroth. She wrote a
romance called ' Urania.'

40 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

shadows, and she maintained them.' Both
appeaHng to Jonson, he affirmed it true ;
for which my lady gave a penance to prove
it in verse ; hence his epigram ;

Essex wrote that epistle, or preface,
before the translation of the last part of
Tacitus, which is A. B. The last book
the gentleman durst not translate for the
evil it contains of the Jews ;

The King said Sir P. Sidney was no
poet. Neither did he see any verses in
England to the ' Sculler's ' •}

it were good that the half of the
preachers of England were plain igno-
rants, for that either in their sermons they
flatter, or strive to show their own elo-
quence.

^ Meaning that John Taylor was the best poet in
England. James, if this be true, must have changed
his opinion since 1586-87, when he wrote and pub-
lished a poem eulogizing Sir Philip's genius.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMAIOND 41
XV.

His Opinion of Verses.

That he wrote all his first in prose, for
so his master, Camden, taught him ;

that verses stood by sense without either
colours or accents •}

a great many epigrams were ill because
they expressed in the end what could have
been understood by what was said. That
of Sir J. Davies, 'Some loved running
verses,' ' plus mihi complacet ' ;

he imitated the description of a night
from Bonnefons' ' Vigilium Veneris ' ;

he scorned such verses as could be

transposed, —

'Where is the man that never yet did hear
Of fair Penelope, Ulysses' Queen ?
Of fair Penelope, Ulysses' Queen,
Where is the man that never yet did hear ?'-

* • Which, yet other times, he denied.' — Dkummond.
' By Sir J. Davies.

42 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

XVI.
Of his IVor^s.

That the half of his comedies were not
in print ;

he hath a pastoral entitled the ' May-
Lord ' ;

his own name is 'Alkin'; 'Ethra' the
Countess of Bedford's, ' Mogibel ' Over-
bury, the old Countess of Suffolk an en-
chantress ; other names are given to Lady
Somerset, Pembroke, the Countess of Rut-
land, Lady Wroth. In his first story
Alkin cometh in mending his broken pipe '^

he hath an intention to write a fishes or
pastoral play, and set the stage^ of it in
the Lomond Lake ;

that ' epithalamium ' that wants a name

' ' Contrary to all other pastorals, he bringeth the
clowns making mirth and foolish sports.' — Drummond.
- Scene.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 43

in his printed works was made at the
Earl of Essex's marriage ;^

he is to write his foot pilgrimage
hither, and to call it a ' Discov^ery';

in a poem he calleth ' Edinburgh '

' The heart of Scotland, Britaui's other eye ;'

a play of his, upon which he was
accused, ' The Devil is an Ass ' ; accord-
ing to ' Comedia Vetus,' in England the
Devil was brought in with one Vice- or
other ; the play done, the Devil carried
away the Vice ; he brings in the Devil so
overcome with the wickedness of his age
that he thought himself an ass. Uttotp-yovq
is discoursed of the ' Duke of Drownland ";
the King desired him to conceal it ;

' This Countess of Essex afterwards married
Somerset, the King's favourite She was tried, and
convicted of the murder of Sir Thomas Overbury.

- Buffoon.

44 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

he hath commented and translated
Horace's ' Art of Poetry ;' it is in dia-
logue ways ; by ' Criticus ' he under-
standeth Dr. Donne. The old book that
goes about, ' The Art of English Poetry,'
was done twenty years since, and kept
long in manuscript as a secret;

he had an intention to have made a
play like Plautus' ' Amphitrio,' but left it
off, for that he could never find two others
so like that he could persuade the spec-
tators they were one.

XVII.

Of his Jests and Apothegms.

At what time Henry the Fourth turned
Catholic, Pasquill had in his hand a book,
and was asked by Mophorius, what it was ;
he told him it was grammar. ' Why do ye

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 45

Study grammar, being so old ?' asked Mo-
phorius. ' Because,' answered he, ' I have
found a positive that hath no superlative,
and a superlative that wants a positive :
the King of Spain is Rex Catholicus, and
is not Catholicissimus ; and the French
King Christianissimus, yet is not Christi-
anus ;

when they drank on him, he cited that
of Pliny that they had called him 'Ad pran-
dium non ad poenam et notam ';

and said of that panegyrist who wrote

panegyrics in acrostics, window's crosses,

that he was ' Homo miserrimse patientise';

he scorned anagrams,^ and had ever in

his mouth

'Turpe est difficiles amare nugas,
Et stultus labor est ineptiarum.'

A cook who was of an evil life, when
' At that time very popular.

y..:

■^--^'^■^^46 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

a minister told him he would be to hell,
asked ' what torment was there.' Being
answered ' Fire,' said he, ' That (fire) is
mv bedfellow ';

a lord playing at tennis, and having
asked those in the gallery ' whether a
stroke was chase or loss,' a brother of my
Lord Northumberland's answered ' it was
loss.' The lord demanded if he did say-
it. ' I say it,' said he, ' what are you ?'
' I have played your worth,' said the lord.
' Ye know not the worth of a gentleman I'
replied the other. And it proved so, for
ere he died he was greater than the other.
Another English lord lost all his game ;
if he had seen a face that liked him not,
he struck his balls at that gallery ;

an Englishman who had maintained
Democritus' opinion of atoms, being old,
wrote a book to his son (who was not then

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMONQ. .4^^-^ -

six years of age) in which he left him
arguments to maintain, and answer objec-
tions, for all that was in his book ; only, if
they objected obscurity against his book,
he bid him answer that his father, above
all names in the world, hated most the
name of ' Lucifer,' and all open writers
were ' Luciferi ';

Butler excommunicated from his table
all reporters of long poems, wilful dis-
puters, tedious discoursers ; the best ban-
quets were those where they ministered
no musicians to chase time ;

the greatest sport he saw in France
was the picture of our Saviour, with the
Apostles, eating the Paschal lamb that was
all larded ;

at a supper where a gentlewoman had
given him unsavoury wildfowl, and, there-
after, to wash, sweet water, he commended

48 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

her that she gave him sweet water, be-
cause her flesh stinked ;

he said to Prince Charles of Inigo Jones,^
that when he wanted words to express the
greatest villain in the world, he would call
him an Inigo ;

Jones having accused him for naming
him, behind his back, a fool, he denied it ;
but, says he, I said he was an arrant
knave, and I avouch it ;

one who fired a tobacco-pipe with a
ballad, the next day having a sore-head,
sw^ore he had a great singing in his head,
and he thought it was the ballad ; a poet
should detest a ballad-maker ;

he saw a picture painted by a bad

painter of Esther, Haman, and Ahasu-

erus. Haman, courting Esther in a bed

after the fashion of ours, was only seen by

^ The famous architect. He prepared the scenery
of some of Jonson's masques.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 49

one leg. Ahasuerus' back was turned,
with this verse over him, ' And wilt thou,
Haman, be so malicious as to lie with my
own wife in my own house ?'

He himself being once so taken, the
goodman said, ' I would not believe you
would abuse my house so ' ;

in a profound contemplation, a student
of Oxford ran over a man in the fields,
and walked twelve miles ere he knew
what he was doing ;

one who wore side-hair being asked of
another who was bald, ' why he suffered his
hair to grow so long,' answered, ' it was to
see if his hair would grow to seed, that he
might sow it on bald pates ' ;

a painter who could paint nothing but

a rose, when an inn-keeper had advised

with him about an ensing,^ said, ' that a

' I.e., when an inn-keeper had negotiated with him
about painting a sign-board.

50 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

horse was a good one, so was a hare, but
a rose was above them all ;

a little man drinking Prince Henry's
health, between two tall fellows, said he
made up the H ;

Sir H. Wotton, before his majesty's
going to England, being disguised^ at
Leith, on Sunday, when all the rest were
at church, being interrupted of his occupa-
tion . . ?

a Justice of Peace would have com-
manded a captain to sit first at table
because, says he, ' I am a Justice of the
Peace '; the other drawing his sword,
commanded him, 'for,' saith he, ' I am a
Justice of War ';

^ Wotton, then in the service of the Duke of
Tuscany, lived some months in Scotland, anno 1602,
disguised for political purposes as an Italian.

^ The remainder of this sentence I have omitted.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 51

what is that, the more you take out of
it, groweth still the longer ? — A ditch ;

he used to say that they who delight to
fill men extraordinary in their own houses,
loved to have their meat again ;

a certain Puritan minister would not give
the Communion save to thirteen at once,
(imitating as he thought our Master); now,
when they were set, and one bethink-
ing himself that some of them must re-
present Judas, that it should not be he,
returned, and so did all the rest, under-
standing his thought ;

a gentlewoman fell in such a frenzy
with one Mr. Dod, a Puritan preacher,
that she requested her husband, for the
procreation of an angel or saint, that he
might lie with her ; which having ob-
tained, it was but an ordinary birth ;

Scaliger writes an epistle to Casaubon,

4—2

52 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

where he scorns us English speaking of
Latin, for he thought he had spoke
EngHsh to him ;

a gentleman, reading a poem that began
with

' Where is the man that never yet did hear
Of fair Penelope, Ulysses' Queen ?'

calling his cook, asked if he had ever
heard of her; who, answering 'no,' de-
monstrate to him,

' Lo, there the man that never yet did hear
Of fair Penelope, Ulysses' Queen !'

a waiting-woman, having cockered with
muscadel and eggs her mistress' page, for
a she meeting in the dark, his mistress in-
vaded, of whom she would of such boldness
have a reason. ' Faith, lady,' said he, ' I
have no reason, save that such was the
good pleasure of the muscadel and eggs ;'

a judge coming along a hall, and being

I

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 53

stopped by a throng, cried ' Dominum
cognoscite vestrum.' One of them there
said, they would, if he durst say the
beginning of that verse (for he had a fair
wife): ' Actseon ego sum,' cried he, and
went on ;

a packet of letters, which had fallen
overboard, was devoured of a fish that
was taken at Flushing, and the letters
were safely delivered to him whom they
were written in London;

he scorned that simplicity of Cardan
about the pebble-stone of Dover which,
he thought, had that virtue, kept between
one's teeth, as to save him from being sick ;

a scholar, expert in Latin and Greek,
but nothing in the English, said of hot
breath, that he would make the danger
of it, for it could not be ill English that
was good Latin, ' facere periculum ' ;

54 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

a translator of the ' Lives of the Em-
perors,' translated Antonius Pius, Antony
Pye;

the word harlot was taken from Arlotte,
who was the mother of William the Con-
queror ; a rogue from the Latin erro, by
putting a ' g ' to it ;

Sir G. Percy asked the Mayor of
Plymouth, ' whether it was his own beard
or the town's beard that he came to
welcome my Lord w^ith'; for, he thought,
it was so long, that he thought every
one of the town had eked some part
to it ;

that he struck at Sir H. Bowe's breast,
and asked him if he was within ;

an epitaph was made upon one who
had a long beard,

' Here lies a man at a beard's end,' etc. ;

he said to the King, his master, Mr. G.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 55

Buchanan,^ had corrupted his ear when
young, and learned- him to sing verses
when he should have read them ;

Sir F. Walsingham said of our King,-^
when he was ambassador in Scotland,
' Hie nunquam regnabit supernos ' ;

of all his plays he never gained ^200 ;

he had oft this verse, though he
scorned it :

'So long as we may, let us enjoy this breath,
For nought doth kill a man so soon as death ;'

Heywood, the epigrammatist, being
apparelled in velvet by O. Mary, with
his cap on in the presence, in spite of all
the gentlemen, till the Queen herself asked
him what he meant ; and then he asked

^ George Buchanan, the famous classical scholar
and tutor to King James I.
2 Taught.
^ James, before his accession to the English throne.

56 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

her, ' if he was Hey wood'; for she had
made him so brave that he alm.ost had
misknown himself;

his impressa^ was a compass with one
toot in centre, the other broken ; the word,^
• deest quod duceret orbem ' ;

Essex, after his brother's death, Mr.
Devereux, in France, at tilt had a black
shield void, the word, ' par nulla figura
dolori.' Another time, when the Queen
was offended at him, a diamond with its
own ashes, with which it is cut, about it
the words * dum formas minius ' ;

he gave the prince,'^ ' fax gloria mentis
honestae ' ;

he said to me that I was too good and
simple, and that oft a man's modesty made
a fool of his wit ;

' His crest, used on a seal.

2 His motto.

^ Probably Prince Henry, eldest son of James I.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 57

his arms were three spindles, or rhombi ■}
his own word about them, ' percuntabor,'
or ' perscrutator ' ;

his epitaph, by a companion written, is

' Here lies Benjamin Jonson dead,
And hath no more in't than (a) goose in his head ;
That as he was wont, so doth he still,
Live by his wit, and evermore will.'

Another :

' Here lies honest Ben,
That had not a beard on his chen (chin).'

XVIII.

Miscellanies.

John Stow had monstrous observations

ill his Chronicle, and was of his craft a

tailor. He and I were walking alone, he

asked two cripples, what they would have

to take him to their order ; "

' Three cushions were a portion of the arms of the
Johnstones of Annandale.

58 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

in his ' Sejanus ' he hath translated a
whole oration of Tacitus ; the first four
books of Tacitus ignorantly done into
English ;

J. Selden, liveth on his own, is the law-
book of the judges of England, the bravest
man in all languages ; his book ' Titles of
Honour,' written to chamber fellow Hey-
ward ;

Tailor was sent along here to scorn
him ;^

Camden wrote that book ' Remains of
Britain ';

Joseph Hall wrote the * Harbinger ' to
Donne's ' Anniversary ';

the epigram of Martial, ' vir verpium,'
he wants to expone ;

1 Meaning that he thought Taylor the water-poet's
journey to Scotland had been undertaken in derision
of his own ; but in this he was mistaken.

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 59

Lucan, Sidney, Guarini, make every
man speak as well as themselves, for-
getting decorum ; for Dametas sometimes
speaks grave sentences ; Lucan, taken
in parts is excellent, altogether — naught ;

he dissuaded me from Poetry, for that
she had beggared him, when he might
have been a rich lawyer, physician, or
merchant ;

questioned about English, ' them,' 'they
' those ' ; — ' they ' is still the nominative,
' those ' accusative, ' them ' neuter ; collec-
tive, not ' them ' men, ' them ' trees, but
' them ' by itself referred to many. ' Which,'
' who,' be relatives, not ' that.' ' Floods,'
' hills,' he would have masculine ;

he was better versed, and knew more
in Greek and Latin than all the poets in
England, and quintessence their brains ;

he made much of that epistle of

6o CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

Pliny's, where ' ad prandium, non ad
notam ' is ; and that other of ' Marcellinus,'
who PHny made to be removed from the
table ; and of the gross turbot ;

one wrote one epigram to his father,
and vaunted he had slain ten, the quantity
of ' decem ' being false. Another answered
the 'epigram,' telling that 'decern' was
false ;

of all styles he loved most to be named
' Honest,' and hath of that one hundred
letters so naming him ;

he had this oft, —

' Thy flattering picture, Phryne, is like thee
Only in this, that ye both painted be ;'

in his merry humour he was wont to
name himself the Poet ;

he went from Leith homeward, the
25th of January, 1619, in a pair of shoes

CONVERSATIONS WITH DRUMMOND 6i

which, he told, lasted him since he came
from Darnton,^ which he minded to take
back that far again, they were appearing
like Coryat's ;- the first two days he was
all excoriate ;

if he died by the way, he promised to
send me his papers of this country, hewn
as they were ;

I have to send him descriptions of
Edinburgh, Borrow Lawes, and of the
Lomond ;^

that piece of the * Pucelle of the Court '
was stolen out of his pocket by a gentle-
man who drank him drowsy, and given
Mistress Boulstred, which brought him
great displeasure.

1 Darlington.

2 An author of a book of travels.

" This proves that Jonson appreciated fine scenery;
and probably more so than Drummond, who, in his
poems, makes no mention of his own beautiful home.

CHAPTER III

drummond's opinion of jonson

Of ' rare ' Ben Jonson Drummond's de-
scription was not flattering, as the record
below will reveal. A bitter controversy
has taken place concerning the justice of
the Scottish poet's criticisms, as to which I
leave the reader to form his own decision.
* He (Ben Jonson) is a great lover and
praiser of himself, a contemner and scorner
of others ; given rather to lose a friend
than a jest ; jealous of every word and
action of those about him (especially after
drink,^ which is one of the elements in

^ ' He would many times exceed in drink : Canary
was his beloved liquor.' — Aubrey.

DRUMMOND'S OPINION: OF JONSON 63

which he Hveth) ; a dissembler of ill parts
which reign in him,^ a bragger of some
good that he lacketh ; thinketh nothing
well, but what either he himself, or some
of his friends and countrymen, have said
or done ; he is passionately kind and
angry ; careless either to gain or keep ;
vindictive, but if he be well answered, at
himself.

' For any religion, as being versed in
both.- Interpreteth best sayings and
deeds often to the worst. Oppressed
with phantasy, which hath ever mastered
his reason, a general disease in many
poets. His inventions are smooth and
easy ; but, above all, he excelleth in a
translation.

' Jonson, nevertheless, made himself so popular
while in the north, that he was given the freedom of
Edinburgh.

- Catholic and Protestant.

64 CONVERSATIONS OF BEN JONSON

'When his play of a " Silent Woman "^
was first acted, there were found verses
after, on the stage, against him, concluding
that the play was well named the " Silent
Women " (for) there was never one man to
say " Plaudite " to it.'

1 ' Epicoene ; or, The Silent Woman,' a comedy
produced in 1609.

This play was produced several years before Jonson
was made (our first) Poet Laureate. His successors
in that office have been — Davenant, Dryden, Shad-
well, Tate, Rowe, Eusden, Gibber, Whitehead, Warton,
Pye, Southey, Wordsworth, Tennyson, and Austin.

THE END.

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